Devyn Mikell [00:00:03]:

Hey, this is Devyn Mikell with the Higher Quality podcast. Super excited to be interviewing you. So could you introduce yourself, your role in the company that you work at?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:00:13]:

Hi, my name is Rachel Cupples. I'm a senior recruiter for textio. My pronouns are she, her, hers.

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Devyn Mikell [00:00:20]:

What is top of mind for you as a talent leader at your organization?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:00:24]:

I wish there was one thing that was top of mind. There are so many things that are important in recruitment, but I'm going to stick with candidate experience because keeping candidate experience top of mind and that human experience is imperative not only the way that I recruit and source candidates, but to create that truly world class candidate experience that I'm striving to create continually.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:00:49]:

What's something unique about you as a talent leader at your organization that makes you a perfect fit for that job?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:00:56]:

I would say it's my ability to meet people where they are and build from there. There isn't one thing that makes a recruiter a great recruiter. The art of recruiting well and providing world class candidate experiences. It's not easy. It's balancing a million little things. This is a human experience, right? Your hiring managers are human. Your recruiters are human. Your candidates are human.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:01:21]:

So as long as we center everything that we do around the human experience and meeting people where they are, not where we want them to be, but where they are, and then building from there, we can be unstoppable.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:01:32]:

We made it to the last question, and this one's a fun one. What is the worst question you've ever been asked in an interview?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:01:40]:

When I was interviewing for a senior recruiter role and a hiring manager, the person that I would work directly for.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:01:47]:

Asked me what I was going to.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:01:49]:

Do when the fad of diversity recruitment was over and organizations didn't prioritize Dei and diversity recruitment.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:01:59]:

Once I thought about it, I was.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:02:01]:

Grateful that that came out right away in the first interview, in the first 30 minutes because I didn't need to waste my time anymore. And I could focus on applying for roles at organizations that were more likely to see the value not only in DEI and inclusion, but as a thought.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:02:17]:

Or a nice to have, but the.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:02:20]:

Value in diversity recruitment and focusing on the human experience and how important that is overall to lending to retention, quality of hire, and so much else.

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Devyn Mikell [00:02:37]:

What's up everyone? I'm Devyn Mikell, host of the higher quality podcast and co founder and COO of Qualify. I'm also joined by Rachel Cupples, who you just heard on the pre interview on the show, but now she is here to join me for a Higher Quality conversation. Rachel, thanks so much for being here and joining me.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:02:58]:

Thank you. I'm excited to be here today.

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Devyn Mikell [00:03:01]:

Likewise.

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Devyn Mikell [00:03:02]:

So, Rachel, you are the senior recruiter at textio. For those who don't know, maybe I'll give my best go at it. But textio is this amazing tool, used, at least for me, in the talent acquisition space, that helps people get beyond the standard descriptions, job descriptions, and the wording that's used to get candidates attracted to your company. Helping you be more diversity friendly, more bias friendly, if that's a word. But I'm going to just hand it to you, because two things I want you to do. Tell the world what textile is in a better way than I did. And then second is tell the world who you are in a better way.

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Devyn Mikell [00:03:41]:

Than I did, too.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:03:42]:

Okay. Well, first of all, my name is Rachel couple. I use she her pronouns. I reside in Washington state. And yes, I am the senior recruiter at textio. Textio, in a nutshell, helps companies hire and retain diverse teams by eliminating bias through, honestly, like, the most critical moments across the talent lifecycle. We give, or textio give their clients tools to build high performing teams and really focus on attracting diverse talent and then taking it further with supporting career growth for organizations. So, hopefully, I did text you justice there.

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Devyn Mikell [00:04:25]:

Yeah, you did it more justice than me. I just shut up in the beginning. I'm like, I don't know why I'm doing this. Brain thought I tried, but no. One of the things that really caught my eye in your pre interview, which, thank you for doing that ahead of schedule, what caught my ear, my attention was your superpower, right? You said, and I'll potentially butcher it, but you can correct me.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:04:49]:

But basically, meeting people where they're at.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:04:51]:

And building from there as one of your unique competencies, what makes you so great at what you do? And I really appreciated when I heard.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:04:58]:

It, but I want you to unpack it.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:05:00]:

Where does that come from? What does that mean to you? And how can people think about doing that themselves?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:05:05]:

First, I want to preface, I have more than one superpower, but this is the superpower that I am most. I think that most encompasses who I am specifically to being a recruiter. One of my favorite quotes, I have no idea who said this. I wish I did. So if anybody listening knows, please find me. I would love to give this person.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:05:26]:

Credit, because I say this all the time.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:05:29]:

People can only meet you typically as deeply as they've met themselves.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:05:32]:

And so when we think about that.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:05:35]:

And how we approach people, if we're only approaching them from ourself and not considering who they are and where they're at or attempting to consider and understand. That's where a lot of miscommunication and barriers just automatically begin building.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:05:53]:

So if we want to truly be.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:05:56]:

Inclusive and hire strategically, we need to be able to meet. As a recruiter, I need to not only meet my boss and my hiring managers and my internal team where they are, to understand what we truly need and the hiring needs of our organization. But when I'm outsourcing or recruiting and reviewing applicants, and specifically in interviews, I need to make an intentional effort every time to meet people where they are. As someone who has been, communication has been something that I've struggled with my entire life, being neurodivergent. And when I say struggle, I don't have a problem talking, but being understood or getting these words that are what's in my head to come out of my mouth because I think too fast often. And so knowing that, and knowing my own struggle with communication and knowing how hard it is specifically to be a job seeker and in that interviewee seat, I do everything I can to make candidates meet them where they are, make them feel comfortable, let them know I'm there for them.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:06:59]:

And it's not just a line.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:07:02]:

I'm going to be with them every step of the way through the process.

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Devyn Mikell [00:07:06]:

Got you.

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Devyn Mikell [00:07:06]:

So it sounds like you really take the, almost like the partnership approach. You're their ally as they go to try and get this job. You're viewing your job as not, I'm not here to not get you a job. Like, I'm not here to select you out. I'm here to ally with you and make sure this is a fit for you.

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Devyn Mikell [00:07:23]:

Right.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:07:24]:

You bring up a really good point, because how I was taught originally was not before I knew anything about recruiting early in my career, I was taught, you're always not ruling people in, you're ruling people out. And actually what that does is it makes my job ten times as hard and long, and it's not the smart, strategic thing to do for business. Hiring diversely and creating inclusive and equitable workplaces is not just a warm and fuzzy thing. We do this because it makes us better and it impacts our bottom line. On top of people matter.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:08:07]:

We're all humans.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:08:09]:

And so I believe that organizations that truly care are putting in the work. They're taking the steps. And so it's really exciting to see working at textio, especially within the, you know, talent acquisition community, to see our clients use our products and to see all of these organizations that are really trying to do the work.

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Devyn Mikell [00:08:31]:

Yeah.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:08:33]:

Do you guys see people come to.

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Devyn Mikell [00:08:36]:

Text you as like, hey, fix all.

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Devyn Mikell [00:08:38]:

Of our dei problem? That's what they're thinking when they come? Or is it like they know they've already done the work and know where to fit text deal?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:08:46]:

That's a really great question, and I am someone that does not make things up. So what I can tell you is that that would be a great question for one of my salespeople, and I should ask them, but I don't know.

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Devyn Mikell [00:08:56]:

The answer to it. That's fair. Totally fair.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:08:59]:

So, okay, you're at textio today, but.

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Devyn Mikell [00:09:01]:

We didn't start there.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:09:03]:

If I'm not mistaken, you actually started in the sales side.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:09:07]:

Yeah, I started in administrative roles, but.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:09:10]:

Actually I started building skateboards at this old place called Mr. Rags back in the day, if anybody remembers Mr. Rags, that was a long time ago. But yes, I would say my professional. Outside of retail, inside sales, outside sales, and then moved into leadership. So I did that for about ten years.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:09:30]:

And honestly, it got to the point where.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:09:35]:

At that point, I didn't know that I was a mission values driven human. I didn't even consider why I was successful at it, but I wasn't finding joy or just satisfaction, and it wasn't necessarily what I was selling or who I was working for or any of that. It's just I didn't understand myself and what my needs were professionally, just growing.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:09:58]:

Up, figuring it out.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:09:59]:

But when I realized that I needed to be in a position where I was helping someone, that changed everything. So I worked for a SaaS company, a software company. I was their inside sales manager.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:10:17]:

Got you.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:10:18]:

The company also owned a staffing agency. So I was selling labor management software and helping organizations with staffing as well as software. I saw it as an opportunity. One of our competitors knocked on my door and to come be a branch manager for us at our staffing agency, and with high hopes and just an eagerness to round out so I have the sales experience now I can learn more operational side of things, head first, eyes closed. Had no idea what I was getting myself into.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:10:55]:

But my first role as a recruiter.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:10:58]:

Was as a branch manager of a staffing agency. My first role as a recruiter was recruiting and being in charge of a branch of recruiters. So it's an interesting. Not the way that I would recommend anyone to start out their recruitment career. However, I will say, as tough as my first year was, I learned so much in that first year about what not to do. That even eleven years later, I still go back to that first year, and that gave me all the fundamentals of what not to do.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:11:34]:

What's like, an example of what you.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:11:36]:

Did that was like a what not to do.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:11:38]:

Well, what you don't do is put someone in a role that's never recruited, let alone leading recruiters, without support and training. I mean, that's the first thing. But before 2020, before we started seeing more interviewing over Zoom, virtual, the switch to more phone interviews and whatnot, people were meeting in person and working in a staffing agency twice a week. We did a lot of general labor, and so we'd have an open house twice a week, and people would walk in. So I didn't have a bubble.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:12:22]:

That's one thing. So I learned space and the importance.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:12:26]:

Of keeping distance from people. And I also learned I grew up middle class, didn't have everything I ever wanted as a kid, but I grew up pretty well. And this was my first experience working with a community of people that were paycheck to paycheck in a way that was like, and job to job taking temporary roles because of whatever circumstances come across their life. And it's where I realized there was more that I could do. I didn't know what it was, but I knew I wanted to be more involved, and I wanted to help people because there were. I met some incredible people that I still know today that just needed someone to take a chance on them. It just needed someone to look at them beyond their resume, because unless you're hiring a professional resume writer and if you have somebody walking in and you're already interviewing them, take the time, ask them more questions. I guess it's where I learned to meet people, where they were, I guess, in a professional setting.

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Devyn Mikell [00:13:48]:

Going back to that, if that makes.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:13:50]:

Sense, that was, like, foundational.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:13:52]:

Yeah. Honestly, that was the hardest year in my entire life, career wise. But if it weren't for that year, I wouldn't be here talking to you today.

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Devyn Mikell [00:14:06]:

So it's funny that you say that. Almost every single interview I've had here at higher quality has been with someone who started in staffing. Like, that was their foundation, and I don't know if that's, like, the thing.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:14:22]:

No. Well, how do you get into recruiting? Right? I don't know. I haven't met anyone. Maybe there is someone. So I don't want to say they're never, but I've never met anyone who grew up wanting to be a recruiter. My daughter, who's in college right now, has been adamant that she's not going to be a recruiter. She would be exceptional. And I understand that you don't want to do what your mom does, but when you ask people how they got into recruiting, they usually fall into it, right? I wasn't looking to be a recruiter.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:14:56]:

I was approached with an opportunity and went with it. There's not like a recruiting degree program. You can get an HR degree. What is it, a quarter, maybe two? Or there's some employment law, some recruiting, but employment law and the job market and strategy changes. I feel like every day, depending on where you're located and geographically where you.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:15:22]:

Recruit, so people fall, it's easy to.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:15:25]:

Fall into staffing because staffing requires a lot of very strong recruiters, but most often great staffing agencies understand the importance of support and support roles. And so a lot of folks can start in as a coordinator or working the front desk or a junior recruiter, and you can work side by side. And it's almost like whether they're a startup staffing agency or not, it really feels a lot like that startup mentality, even working at a big firm, because it's very fast paced, but if you can soak it up, you can learn so much.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:16:00]:

Right.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:16:01]:

So when you went from okay, you.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:16:04]:

Were a branch manager? Yeah, I was a branch manager for a year. Focused more on warehouse, general labor, light industrial, temp, and temp to hire. Then I moved to another agency that was more of a boutique agency, working specifically more with three pls, like third party logistic companies, distribution and hiring for everything from director to the entry level person in the warehouse. And I learned a lot at that second agency just as much. So I have about two years staffing experience total. And while it was hard and at the end of the day, wasn't for me, like long term something for me career wise, it definitely gave me everything I needed from a foundation standpoint. And anytime someone says, how do I get into recruiting? Or I'm thinking about getting into recruiting, I tell them a coordinator or an assistant type role in HR or Ta or go into staffing. Because especially if someone has customer service.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:17:15]:

Retail, some type of human interaction type.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:17:20]:

People focused experience, it's a great skill to have.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:17:25]:

Okay, two years spent and you jumped to director of talent.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:17:30]:

Well, I moved or you became.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:17:36]:

I became, I moved to a social enterprise here in Seattle. And actually I went back into a sales role.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:17:43]:

Initially my focus was this time though.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:17:47]:

This was an organization that I had admired and wanted to work for. Got it and they weren't hiring for recruiters. And I just happened to have this experience, and a friend of mine that worked in another agency, not the agents, we never worked together, but she reached out to me and said, you're not going to believe it. They're hiring. And that's how that happened. So I moved into. I can't even remember what my title was, but sales, it was like a sales customer support type role for one of their businesses. About six months in, their CPO reached out to me and said, hey, we're thinking about creating more of a staffing model, because while they were a nonprofit at the time, they had seven revenue generating businesses in seven different industries, and they really needed their recruiting efforts, if they were going to centralize, needed to be set up like a staffing model.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:18:47]:

So it was literally written for me. It was working for a nonprofit where the main focus was children and adults with disabilities, which disability doesn't discriminate against. Demographics, other demographics. And so it was an opportunity for me to truly take what I learned in those, the short time of two years in staffing, which felt like boot camp and really impact more than just the disability community, but like all underrepresented communities and build from the ground up.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:19:28]:

A staffing model inside a corporate type of organization.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:19:34]:

Yeah.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:19:36]:

Did you say disability doesn't discriminate?

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:19:38]:

Yes.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:19:39]:

I love that it's a bar.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:19:42]:

There are certain disabilities. I have lupus, and there are certain disabilities or things that impact certain people, men more or women more, or certain nationalities or whatnot.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:19:55]:

But at the end of the day.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:19:59]:

None of us are immune to a disability. So, yeah, it was a dream come true to be able to the work that I was able to do there, create that program. Yeah, it was definitely a dream come true, and I'm so grateful for that. And if it weren't for that opportunity.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:20:13]:

And the introduction to in that company.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:20:16]:

It'S the first time I understood the concept. But if I'm going to be really honest, 2016 is the first time I ever heard white privilege together in a conversation about white privilege. And my mind wasn't blown because of the concept, but it was blown. Like, why have I never heard? I know this. This is what I've never put it to know. And then I learned more about it, and I just had so many opportunities working at Northwest center just to grow just my understanding. Beyond talk about people meeting you. They can only meet you where they met themselves.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:20:52]:

Beyond who I was as this outwardly.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:20:56]:

Looking, healthy white woman.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:21:03]:

It changed my life in so many great ways.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:21:05]:

So I have to imagine this is.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:21:07]:

When I'm guessing, but I could be wrong.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:21:11]:

And you may have been doing this before, but really intentionally as a talent leader, starting to check your own biases too.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:21:17]:

Yeah, 2016.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:21:19]:

That's when I really did.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:21:22]:

What did that look like? What were some that you held and how did you check them for people that are listening, that want to how do we do the work?

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:21:30]:

I ask this question all the time to job seekers.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:21:34]:

How do you challenge your own assumptions? Right. Because it's imperative. You can't just do it once.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:21:41]:

We need to do it all the time.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:21:42]:

And it really doesn't matter what type of role or profession you have on a professional. Hopefully that you challenge your assumptions personally, but on a professional basis, it's imperative to be successful.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:21:55]:

I read a lot.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:21:57]:

I follow and listen to people that are smarter than me and have different experiences than, you know, Jackie Clayton, Torren Ellis, Adam Carpiak. I could just name all of these people that have different types of roles and expertise, but that are experts in Deib, right? Are experts in recruitment and that's my coworkers asking questions. I had a great support system when I was at the Social Enterprise at Northwest center. My boss, I reported directly to the CPO. She was always available for me and.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:22:38]:

Very passionate herself about Deib and made.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:22:43]:

Sure that I was able to get the professional development that I needed. But one of the most eye opening and groundbreaking things for myself and my entire recruitment team at the time was when we brought in a facilitator outside of our organization that spoke to us specifically for an entire day. And we went through a ton of exercises just about bias in recruitment and hiring, an entire day of it. And.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:23:13]:

It was twofold.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:23:14]:

It was an exercise for my team for us to work together and learn how to be uncomfortable and talk about. For some folks, depending on what we were talking about, it was very uncomfortable. But to learn together and it made myself, I believe, and my team stronger and truly thirstier, if that's hungrier, to learn more. We wanted to learn more and be better. And we won an award in January of 2020 for our diversity and our diversity recruitment efforts and inclusive interviewing practices.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:23:54]:

By the largest diversity focused career fair in the US.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:24:00]:

Wow.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:24:02]:

It's not for that kind of stuff, but it felt really great after four.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:24:09]:

Years of working really hard to be recognized for that.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:24:14]:

Absolutely.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:24:15]:

So what were some of the practical things that you shifted to do inclusive interview practices? What did that look like? And that helped you get this award? What was it practically that you did differently than most organizations.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:24:28]:

I don't know what most organizations do, truthfully, but what I think I do, talking to, at least from the recruitment community and the folks that I know that are recruiters and from job seekers and hear their experiences interviewing elsewhere and.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:24:46]:

Whatnot, but I would say so many things.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:24:50]:

Pronouns was a huge thing. I never considered it. The other thing was we were hiring people of all abilities. So it was more than just making sure that the resumes that are coming in and we're reviewing them in an inclusive and equitable, unbiased way. It's also what type of accommodations should we provide? What type of resources should we provide folks to apply for our roles if they need it, to interview with us to feel comfortable applying for positions. Each one of the businesses that we hired for and as well as corporate, it ended up being kind of eight.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:25:33]:

Different buckets almost, or processes, I guess, that we followed, but what we followed.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:25:44]:

Across the board was meeting people where they were okay, asking upfront, making sure.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:25:51]:

That our application process was the least.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:25:54]:

Amount of steps as possible. If you don't have a resume, just type in some stuff. If you do have a resume, you're not going to have to retype in all of your experience. We're not going to ask you a bunch of questions. We're going to make this as simple as possible and make sure that phone numbers and emails are available for people to reach us if they're struggling to apply from there. Interview hiring manager, interview training, recruiter, interview training. Lots of research went into that. We just continued to iterate.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:26:28]:

It wasn't like we went to that day long training and I was like, okay, tomorrow or I'm going to take this week and we're going to just.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:26:35]:

Flip the script if you wait to.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:26:37]:

Do it all at once. And that's where I think a lot of organizations go wrong. Well, if we can't do everything, we're not going to do it at, you know, Jackie Clayton. I report to Jackie Clayton, vice president of Deib and talent acquisition at textio, and she says this. I'm sure I know someone else said it, but she reminds me often when I get impatient. How do you eat an elephant, Rachel? One bite at a time. And it's so true, but that's exactly how we did it. One bite at a time.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:27:06]:

And we changed what we could as we went because we didn't have the luxury. We were hiring three to 500 people a year, most of them with documented disabilities and support needs. And it was just a lot of administrative work. And just staying organized type work. But anytime we could improve that candidate experience and improve the process to become.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:27:36]:

More efficient, we did it.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:27:39]:

So there wasn't one thing. I guess I feel like I'm talking in circles, Devyn, but one thing at a time, okay. We're going to change the way we're wording this. We're going to make sure that it is crystal clear when we go to.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:27:52]:

Job fairs that we have people that speak multiple languages.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:27:58]:

We are going to bring somebody that maybe isn't fluent in sign language. But if we're going to show up to a career fair targeting the deaf community, we're going to make sure that we can not only show them that there's representation within our organization, so they can see people like them, so that they can find out for themselves from people that already work for us what it's like. Because that's so powerful. You could be the greatest salesperson, the greatest recruiter, hiring manager, whatever it is, in the world. But until someone can for themselves.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:28:39]:

Trust.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:28:40]:

That your organization is going to support them and has a track record of supporting people like you, whoever that is.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:28:49]:

Yeah.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:28:50]:

Anyway, it's huge.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:28:52]:

That's the b part, right? In the Deib?

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:28:55]:

Yeah, it is. Because it's just as I think another.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:28:58]:

Area, recruiters, we do the work to.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:29:02]:

Get the people in, right. But we're not the experts on the other end making sure that there is that sense of belonging and that we can't recruit and run programming and whatnot. So recruiters that are bringing diversity, recruiters that are recruiters focused on diversity, really need to have an organization and partners within their organization that are doing the work to support the people. Because it's our reputations too. Right? I wouldn't be able to speak so loud and proud across all of social media about textio if I didn't truly.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:29:42]:

Know that we are doing everything we.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:29:45]:

Can and still continue to learn and add more programming and innovate how we do things Dei work is never ending.

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Devyn Mikell [00:29:55]:

I love that concept of like, you're the external gateway, right? And then without the internal, it dies.

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Devyn Mikell [00:30:04]:

Right?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:04]:

Well, recruiting is a team sport.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:06]:

I mean, it really is. I'm a big advocate for having a strong, experienced recruiter for organizations, but if it was only getting someone in the door and hiring someone that meets the.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:23]:

Qualifications, that's one thing, but it's so.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:26]:

Much more than that. And recruiting is going to have to backfill that role if that person leaves. So we need buy in from everyone.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:34]:

And not just buy in action.

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Devyn Mikell [00:30:39]:

I won't go deep on that one. I'll leave that one.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:41]:

I know. I'm like, I could geek out.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:43]:

I mean, I have a lot to.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:47]:

Say, and I could talk in circles about this forever because I'm just so passionate about what I do and how.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:52]:

We can truly revolutionize the world of.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:30:57]:

Work if we look at work. And in my work, recruiting, everything is a team sport. Everyone has to be involved.

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Devyn Mikell [00:31:07]:

Yes, I agree.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:31:09]:

So you're now at textio, and I have two questions. One, this is a quick yes or no is were you a textio user before you were a textio employee?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:31:22]:

I was not.

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Devyn Mikell [00:31:25]:

Nice.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:31:26]:

I was wondering if that's how you got in there. But two, I could tell you how.

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Devyn Mikell [00:31:30]:

I got in here.

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Devyn Mikell [00:31:31]:

Go for it.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:31:32]:

I applied and interviewed. No, but I actually reached out to a group of people. I met Jackie Clayton, my boss, on Twitter in early 2020, talking about recruitment, diversity recruitment. We got into. I was like, oh, her hot takes and just showing up in an unapologetic way and speaking the truth on a platform like Twitter. I had been scared to share strong opinions and to offend or upset the Internet. And Jackie, I just admired how she spoke about Dei and diversity and her passion.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:32:21]:

Anyway, so when I started looking in.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:32:24]:

2021, she was in a group email with ten people. I was like, hey, I'm starting to look. Are you hiring?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:32:32]:

And so she said, yes, you're going.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:32:35]:

To have to go through the process, but apply. So I went through the process like everyone else. And yeah, I started January of 2022.

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Devyn Mikell [00:32:46]:

Congratulations. That's awesome.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:32:48]:

It's been wonderful.

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Devyn Mikell [00:32:50]:

Well, you didn't release it, but Texio.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:32:54]:

Just released some really cool content, as they always do. But this one was kind of like a, felt like a kind of all encompassing feedback.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:33:05]:

Right.

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Devyn Mikell [00:33:06]:

And language bias. And it doesn't have to be just from that. But what's some of the coolest takeaways you've gotten from the content that's been produced from textio based off of the.

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Devyn Mikell [00:33:16]:

Product that you've put out that textio has put out in the world?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:33:19]:

Well, as far as. So we launched our second annual language bias in performance feedback. This year, we explored more of, like, the relationship between feedback quality and employee retention. Not surprising, or not totally surprising. Women of all races and people of color, of all genders systemically received the lowest quality feedback and are leaving organizations that are providing that type of feedback at the highest rates right now, even in today's job market, which is pretty brutal. If you haven't seen the report, I'll send you a link so you can share it if anybody wants to read it. But people receiving low, one of the things that kind of, again, it's like, I'm surprised, but I'm not surprised. But people receiving low quality feedback overall, like 63% of everyone, we're not just talking about one community leave their jobs because of low quality feedback.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:34:28]:

Men report being called ambitious two times more than women do.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:34:33]:

White people report being called easy to.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:34:36]:

Work with two times more than asian people. Latinx people report being called passionate two times more than white. You just go on and on and all these stereotypes. Black employees just generally get 26% more unactionable feedback than non black employees, despite.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:34:53]:

Receiving, like 79% of the feedback overall.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:34:57]:

So they're getting a ton of feedback, but it's not actionable, it's biased. And it's.

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Devyn Mikell [00:35:05]:

When you say feedback, is this like being performance review? Performance reviews.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:35:11]:

Okay, I got you. Wow.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:35:13]:

Yeah, that one's wild.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:35:15]:

What's in my head? But I do encourage folks. I mean, there's so much data, so much research that we put into it. We launched Textiolift. It's a performance management tool that helps HR teams, people, leaders, employers not only write and give unbiased feedback, but it.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:35:38]:

Helps them with actionable, unbiased feedback.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:35:43]:

I don't know about you, but across my career, more times than not, I've had reviews that reference my personality. Once with my condition when I was pregnant with my daughter. Just things that are like, I don't really, what does this have to do with me, right? My work and my work. And that's just my experience.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:36:06]:

I know many folks like just firsthand that have had awful experience.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:36:12]:

And even myself, when I first became.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:36:13]:

A people leader, I am curious.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:36:16]:

I've often thought, I wish I could go back and read what I wrote back in 2004 as a brand new leader, just barely an adult myself and in the work, in a work role. But the thing about it is that the thing that I get excited about with textio is, it might sound dramatic, but we're really changing the world one word at a time. As every time we write, every time our customers or users write with our programs, they're literally receiving real time feedback. And oftentimes prompts and examples of better ways to say things or flags that.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:37:00]:

No, you should not say this.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:37:02]:

And I don't know about you, but I like to learn as I go. I'm a very hands on, let me drive. I'm going to learn why we're doing this. Right? And so in textio, allows people, it allows our users to not just say they're using textio, but to every day.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:37:17]:

In everything they write with textio, to.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:37:20]:

Be iterating and learning themselves and improving their own writing. And that's not even talking about how it impacts the people and the whole reason. In the end, we're trying to attract more diverse candidate pools. We're trying to give actionable, unbiased feedback.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:37:35]:

It's so much more than just that.

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Devyn Mikell [00:37:37]:

Right.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:37:37]:

And as we write and we change how we write, it then begins to.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:37:40]:

Change how we speak.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:37:43]:

Anyway, another tweet. I give myself goosebumps. I don't know. I love what we do.

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Devyn Mikell [00:37:50]:

I love it, too. Well, awesome. Let's move into the last segment where.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:37:55]:

I get the audience involved. Question of the week. You get the first pass, but for those that are listening, you also get.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:38:01]:

A chance to participate.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:38:03]:

The link to participate will be in.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:38:06]:

The description below or above or side.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:38:10]:

Depends on what you're listening on. Yes, it'll be there. And you'll hear an interview question from me. And so, Rachel, your question of the week is if a company wants to take a serious look at Dei, and I'm going to add the b. I didn't have that earlier.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:38:27]:

So if a company wants to take.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:38:29]:

A serious look at Dei B, specifically in talent acquisition, where should they start?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:38:35]:

I could come up with more than one answer, but I just want to say, first of all, starting. You got to start for me in a perfect world. And actually just recently I just went through this exercise for textio. As we're looking for, where do we want to grow to next? How can we advance and innovate with even what we're doing currently that we're really proud of? I started by auditing candidate experience, and candidate experience starts really before you even post the job. It starts when you're thinking about what you're looking for and what you truly need and goes all the way through someone starting and then it becomes employee experience. Right. So that's where I would start. If the wheels are already in motion and your recruiting engine has been running now, if you're starting fresh and new, then I would reach out to someone that's doing the work, and you could even work backwards or work forwards, I guess, with a candidate experience audit and build from there.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:39:54]:

But the biggest thing is, and this was a huge lesson for me across my career, and it continues to be validated as time goes on. If you wait for it to be perfect, you will never finish it, especially if perfect means doing all the things, right. I shouldn't wait to change. Or we shouldn't wait to change. Say you're going to change an application, right. With adding an optional area for applicants to share their pronouns. I shouldn't wait to do that because I'm writing a new or different type of version of our mission statement or our EEO or whatever that is. Change that right now because that is.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:40:43]:

Where, and this is just, I think.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:40:45]:

In the world of work, it's not.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:40:46]:

Just a recruiting thing where we get.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:40:50]:

In our own way. We got to save ourselves from ourselves. And if it's something that's going to improve candidate experience, if it's something that's going to improve, even if it's just.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:41:02]:

A smidge, do it.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:41:05]:

Don't wait for the whole thing. Because the thing about the type of work that we do, especially as a whole, is thinking about Deib. There's no point in doing it performatively. There really just isn't. Right. Because it's never done. We're talking about humans, right? And so as we evolve and as we grow as humans and as organizations, just in size and in headcount and everything else, we're going to learn and have different types of people and different experiences and whatnot to consider. So expecting the work to have an end, your end, your finish line is when you check off that one feature you added, instead of waiting to launch seven of them at once, it's filling that requisition.

‍

Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:42:02]:

Those are the wins that we get. But there's never an end to the work that we do.

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Devyn Mikell [00:42:06]:

I love it.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:42:08]:

Well, Rachel, I appreciate you and what you bring to the table, the way that you deliver it, all of it.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:42:15]:

Thank you.

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Devyn Mikell [00:42:16]:

Special, and it's been great. And audience, I'm sure, shares in this desire to get to know you more. How would you prefer people stay in touch with you and connect with you?

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:42:26]:

I'm pretty easy to find. You can just google my name. But at recruiting Shero, across all social media platforms except for TikTok, it's recruiting Shero 2.0 because I got banned the first time. So I'm back.

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Devyn Mikell [00:42:45]:

Got you.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:42:46]:

I'm back. But yes, also I work at textio rachelc@textdo.com or rachel@recruitingshiro.com recruitingshiro.com is where my blog sits as well. If you're interested in reading a blog that's written by someone that is not a writer.

‍

Devyn Mikell [00:43:07]:

Awesome.

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Devyn Mikell [00:43:08]:

Well, you heard it from her herself. If you want to follow Rachel, which I'm sure you do, make sure to go to one of those mediums and just stay in touch. But if you like this episode, like what you hear, we do this every other week. We launch a great episode with great people. And so make sure to hit the subscribe button like this episode if you're on YouTube. But make sure to stay in touch so that you can catch the higher quality episodes as they release. And with that, I will say until the next one. And, Rachel, thank you so much.

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Rachel Kitty Cupples [00:43:36]:

Thank you.