Torin Ellis [00:00:00]:

So for a lot of people, while D and I is huge. It's big, it's complicated. Yes, it's all of those things, but it's even easier or better when more of us are doing it versus few. And so what I try to do is go into an organization and get more people involved rather than just a few. There is no one answer. It's a multitude of different approaches, angles, processes, protocols. And that's the reason why you bring in people who know just how to move through that journey.

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Devyn Mikell [00:00:36]:

Hey, I'm Devyn Mikell, and this is higher quality, the show where I sit down with the movers and shakers of talent acquisition to hear their talent triumphs, their hiring horror stories, and genuine opinions about the recruiting industry. Torrin and I on this interview just got down to business. But I'm going to let Torrin give you a sneak peek of why you should listen to this podcast.

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Toryn Ellis [00:00:55]:

58 million. That was the number. $58 million were designated by organizations post George Floyd. And that summer of 2020, that was the number that is the most referenced number of what organizations said they are committed to giving to the efforts of social justice, diversity and inclusion, and all of the other things that fall under that umbrella. Dismal has been the performance. And through that dismal performance, that disingenuous effort, you leave people like myself frustrated, sometimes even furious, because of why we started and where we are today.

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Devyn Mikell [00:01:41]:

Go take a listen. Torn, you're the principal at torn Ellis brand, your own company that you started amongst a few others, from what I see. But why don't you tell the world kind of what you do, what you're passionate about, what's important to you right now in the season, probably the count.

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Toryn Ellis [00:01:57]:

Of start is somewhere around six at this particular point. And if I'm honest with myself, Devin, I think I have at least three, maybe four more companies that I plan to start. But yes, Toren Ellis, advisor, coach, consultant and speaker, I do all things DNI. For me, DNI is humanity. That's the through line for me. So yes, I show up in the DNI space, started all of this as a practitioner, had toyed with becoming a recruitment marketing consultant back in 2011. And when I started to do research on what I would need to learn to get myself up to speed in the recruitment marketing space, I said, you know what? Why don't I take all that I've done as a practitioner and just focus on being a consultant for recruiters? And what I learned quickly was that diversity and inclusion was far more than just recruiting. And so that's the reason why you see me show up the way that I show up today.

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Toryn Ellis [00:02:55]:

And I'm thankful that you are trusting my voice with your audience. I'm glad to be here.

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Devyn Mikell [00:03:01]:

Absolutely. You mentioned something that I've known. DNI is not exclusive to recruiting, but I think everyone puts it in that bucket. It's either they put it in that bucket or I've seen they just don't put it in that bucket at all. Like, it's like it's one or the other.

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Toryn Ellis [00:03:13]:

Well, minor correction, minor correction. And I hope you don't mind we having a conversation this way. They put it in the bucket of talent acquisition or recruiting, or they'll throw it in the bucket of unconscious bias training or maybe training.

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Devyn Mikell [00:03:26]:

So where is the correct. In my mind, it's like it spans the entire. Do you find yourself with the right companies? Are you working with everyone in the company? Like, not just recruiting, not just training, but also like, maybe it's marketing and how they show up for their customer, basically. Like, does it go that far? Or where? Do you kind of, what's your lane?

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Toryn Ellis [00:03:46]:

Do you ever feel like you are undervalued? Do you ever feel like you have positioned yourself and that assessment or that feeling of being undervalued is a result of the decisions that you yourself have made? I'm curious because I put that out there as a rhetorical question, because the response to your question is, I want to talk to everybody. And I say that knowing that oftentimes it's not possible because I've worked with some of the largest brands on the planet. And I don't say that in a boasting way. It's the truth. And so my desire when I go in primarily is to work with leadership. Absolutely want to have access to the highest levels of leadership. I then want to work with those people that are responsible for building relationship leading individuals. We can talk about that a little bit later.

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Toryn Ellis [00:04:44]:

And then my tertiary offering, or ask, is to have access to as many employees as they will give me access to. So what does that mean? That means that it will be individuals that are in environment, social governance or ESG. It'll be people that are in CSR or corporate social responsibility or philanthropic efforts. It will be individuals that roll up to the supplier diversity initiative. It'll be people doing employer branding or recruitment, marketing or talent acquisition or board governance. It'll be individuals across the entire franchise. And the reason I want that to be, Devin, is because I said a moment ago I was a practitioner. So I came to this work because of recruiting.

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Toryn Ellis [00:05:29]:

The reason why I personally believe that I was a successful recruiter is because I told better stories than other recruiters. The reason why I told better stories is because when I went and got my engagements, I'm external now. When I would go and sign an agreement with an organization, I would talk to more than just the VP of sales. I would talk to other individuals in the organization, and the client would always ask me, well, why do you want to talk to them? I said, but they contribute to the story. So when I get to get a candidate on the line and I get to tell a robust and beautiful, aspirational story about your organization, I tend to have people stick more than just that transactional, money bag chasing recruit. And so for me, there's always been a process to how I recruit it, and there is absolutely a process to how I consult, how I coach, and sort of how I approach the advising and even the speaking space. So I want to talk to as many of those thousand, 10,000, 20,000 employees that you possibly have now. The challenge is that a lot of organizations are afraid for me to have those conversations.

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Toryn Ellis [00:06:41]:

They don't know what people are going to reveal to me, because one of the tenets for me is we work with a high degree of confidentiality. So if you're telling me intimate things, problems, challenges, desires in the organization, I'm holding that, sharing it with my team. And then we're figuring out how do we operationalize in a way that's positive. We don't hold negative information. We don't hold damaging or litigious information. But those emotional feelings, those sentiments, we do hold them because we want people to feel safe and speaking with us as an external consultant.

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Devyn Mikell [00:07:21]:

So I have a lot of questions about all this, but before I do that, I want to figure out how you got here. If LinkedIn is correct, you are a sales guy. So how do you go from sales to what sounds like recruiting internal and then external? You kind of explain how you landed to your current role. But what made you make that shift from wanting to recruit to wanting to consult?

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Toryn Ellis [00:07:47]:

Yes, a sales guy for MCI Communications, we sold long distance services to small business customers across the country. I was promoted within a year of being hired, promoted because my sales numbers were off the chart. You know, I was an incredible salesperson. And so then I started to build. I took over the last place sales team in the building. I can't remember how many teams we had in the building. Grew that team to become one of the most productive teams in the entire country, provided we had turnover. I just speak in terms of leading a team.

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Toryn Ellis [00:08:22]:

When I left MCI communications, what I said to myself was, because I hired my own people, was able to groom those individuals in a way that was productive. We were one of the top 70 out of 700 teams in the country. What I said was, if I can hire for them, then I can hire for a number of telecom companies. And so it's a phrase that you may not be familiar with, but back in the late nineties it was called a ClEC, competitive local exchange carrier. So there were a lot of phone companies that weren't your big at and t's, your sprint, your MCI. There were a bunch of espire, allegiance, Hyperion. I mean, I can go down the list. I had a number of them that were my clients.

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Toryn Ellis [00:09:09]:

And so what I said was, I just used my experience at MCI, the tactics that I use to build and hire and do the same thing in an external recruiting agency. So there was no plan, there was no business perspective or no pro forma, there was none of those things. It was simply, I think, a $30 table from IkeA, an dollar eight trash can that was under my desk, like a five dollar clock that was on the wall, and a phone book, literally. And that's how I started recruiting. In 1998, I borrowed $3,000 from a good friend of mine in Philly. He's still my best friend today, which means I gave him back all of his money, plus some. But I used the 3000 to buy a big ass Dell computer so that I could prospect and I could do what it took to build a recruiting firm. And so that's how I got started recruiting.

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Toryn Ellis [00:10:00]:

Doing it at MCI and feeling like I could do it better on my own. Built a seven figure business in less than 18 months. So I knew what I was doing. Seven figures, less than 18 months, no infusion of capital started with zero. That's just the way that it is. I've always been a go getter, I've always been a storyteller, I've always been a person who's been aggressive about what it is that I want. And so for me, diversity and recruiting came as a result of doing some of these high end searches, 100 and 5200, 250,000, $300,000 searches. And when I looked at these organizations, they had no representation.

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Toryn Ellis [00:10:39]:

So for me it was a matter of, well, why is it that the more money individuals are making in sales, there's less representation, the more money people are making in compensation? There's less representation. So, Devin, when you hear me say d and I, I had the observation before I had the language. I didn't have the language until 2011, but I recognize, why are we not in these positions? So I was doing the work as a recruiter, but not doing it under the flag of DNI. And the flag got planted in 2011. And for me, the transition only made sense after dealing with the bubble bursts of 2001, the economic collapse of 2008. I was just tired. You ever get to that point where you just feel like I got this, like I can do this in my sleep and I could continue to do it. Ebb and flow, build a six, seven figure business, lose a little bit, build it again.

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Toryn Ellis [00:11:39]:

I just got tired of that ebb and flow. It wasn't a challenge for me, and I needed to do consulting because it was something new.

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Devyn Mikell [00:11:46]:

The question that was kind of burning in my mind, coming into knowing we're going to talk about DNI and it could be ignorant. You can call me out, that's fine. But my observation as an entrepreneur, as a tech startup, when George Floyd became the hot topic at the time, it seemed like everything came out. Like everyone was like, we care, we see you, we hear you, we're for you. We want to make a difference. We want to make a change. A lot of posts, a lot of social media posts, all that, a lot of chief diversity officer roles became a thing. Things seem to happen outside looking in.

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Devyn Mikell [00:12:25]:

And then from what I've seen in tech, actually, is that it was one all talk, because actually the investment in, for example, black founded companies has actually decreased since then. But I feel like it's kind of similar with all of DNI. Like, it was like, hey, this happened. It became, a lot of talk came out. Some things good happened as a result. But a lot of it has, like, either drifted or it was, it's shown to not really be a priority for the companies that said it was. What is your observation on that situation or that statement?

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Toryn Ellis [00:12:59]:

It is infuriating that you have people who have stood on stages, that have written articles, that have communicated with their internal teams. It is infuriating to me as a black man, to hear folks posit that the reason why they are doing, or were doing DNI was as a result or because of the death of George Floyd. I need people to know how infuriating that is for me as a black man. Now, it may not be that infuriating for some other folks. And what I really want people to understand, just take a moment and I want you to think of the most egregious thing that could happen. And then for someone to say the only reason they're doing something different, something that they should have already been doing, is because of a person that looks like you was murdered, that is infuriating. It is doubly infuriating to know that that was the spark for so many. And then to see two, three years, we done gave him enough.

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Toryn Ellis [00:14:21]:

Now we're going to blame Silicon Valley Bank's failure on diversity and inclusion, will blame Anheuser Busch's sales and or be angry with the organization because they wanted to partner with a transgender influencer. We'll get mad at target because we feel like they are over sexualizing our young people. Chick fil A, darling company of the right. Mad at Chick fil a because they hired a diversity and inclusion person inside of the organization, suggesting that the bridge that went down in Baltimore a couple of months back was a result of having a Dei mayor in Baltimore City. I could go on like, I literally could list headlines and references for the next 20 minutes without stopping. So it is doubly infuriating to know that people have retreated or that they are trying to reclaim what little bit of progress we accelerated, we talked about, we pursued over the last three or four years. Here's the beauty. The beauty is that the folks that are in that camp are a small contingent.

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Toryn Ellis [00:15:33]:

So I do believe that the larger body, the larger audience, the larger organization, if you will, not organizations, but the larger count is still committed to some degree of chasing humanity, doing and exercising an effort of substantive endeavor around diversity and inclusion. So I do believe that the larger body is trying to be genuine about their pursuit. They just need more help. They need more console, more direction, more connection to persons like myself who can help them to advance what it is that they're doing, because still far too many of them, Devin, are working with individuals that are emotionally charged and doing DNI. That's one part of it. It's one thing to be emotionally charged because you feel like you've been wrong, you feel like you've been overlooked, you feel like you've been passed over in the organization, you feel like. You feel like. You feel like they keep wanting to give you a mentor, but not give you an opportunity.

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Toryn Ellis [00:16:36]:

So the emotional charge is valid, but it takes more than that to do real thorough rooted DNI. And so I just feel like more of the organizations that have remained committed still need to open up their wings and bring in consultants and other external assets that perhaps have the acumen, the experience and the roadmap to help them to be more successful.

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Devyn Mikell [00:17:02]:

I feel like a lot of people are, like you said, more people want to see it happen than don't. But I feel like people are stuck in that sense of, like, how can I make a difference? Even me, honestly, sometimes I'm like, the battle seems big. What are some common things with maybe every client you've worked with? It's like, hey, pretty much every time this is flawed and we fix this, like, what are those things that are not easy, but just they stand out.

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Toryn Ellis [00:17:31]:

The biggest celebration was getting organizations, major clients of mine, to do one thing. And that one thing was to ask every employee in the organization, what did you do to support our DNI efforts? You see how simple that is, one thing. And people would answer by saying, well, so, Devin, this is what I did. And Devyn is going to celebrate that. He's going to document that on their performance evaluation or in their employee notes. But that person did something. And in that celebration, we figure out ways for them to amplify the effort that they did and maybe do just a little bit more. One, two, 3% more.

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Toryn Ellis [00:18:14]:

Next year, you're going to have some individuals that may say, Devin, I tried this, but for whatever reason, it wasn't successful. I didn't have the right resources. I didn't have the right support. I thought I knew what I was doing, but I didn't have the domain knowledge that I thought I had. So it kind of missed the mark. But I at least tried. Devyn and Devyn, as a great leader, is going to still celebrate that, and then we'll try to recalibrate and figure out, well, how do we help that individual to overcome the challenges, to get through the roadblock so that they can feel like their contribution was one of value in the organization. So you got those that try, you got those that accomplish, and then you got those that are going to say, you know what? I didn't do anything I didn't want to.

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Toryn Ellis [00:18:56]:

I don't believe in DNI. I don't care about DNI. I did nothing. Devin, as a leader, has a decision to make, and you have to process in that moment through one of the four gates of speech. Do I approach this now? Do I document it and talk about it a little bit later? Do I have the bandwidth, the foundation, the knowledge? How do I address the fact that Torren is saying I did nothing? And so I can't prescribe in this moment how you handle it. But I'm telling you, you have people in one of three camps, and there are those individuals in that third camp, the one that said, I did nothing, where you have to really determine, is this going to be a moment of growth? Is this going to be an opportunity area for this person? Can I bring them over to the side of being an ambassador, an evangelist, a supporter of DNI efforts externally, or will this person always be an outlier? Will this person always be a person who says, I ain't really doing anything, or I'm going to do the bare minimum, like, you literally are going to have to make me do something. We got people in all three camps, and the goal is to make sure you're asking that question, what did you do to support our DNI efforts? And you are trying to usher more people into the positive side versus the negative. That's the first thing that we can do.

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Toryn Ellis [00:20:19]:

Everybody can do that, Devyn. Every single leader, every single executive, every single manager, everybody can ask that one question. It costs nothing, and it changes the frequency, the velocity of DNI in the organization. So a, that's the first thing that I would encourage. The second thing that I would encourage, which is really, really simple, is that leadership has to do a better job of modeling what inclusion looks like. They have to be willing to take accountability for. How are they showing up? Are they encouraging people to participate in external events or internal events that support DNI? Are they encouraging conversations around diversity and inclusion? Are they encouraging the recruiting team to bring them diverse slates of talent? Are they encouraging the recruiting team to look differently about the things that they are asking for? Are they encouraging leadership to give to different organizations? What are they doing as leaders? And through that modeling, eventually corporate comms is going to be connected to all of the activity. They're going to be sharing it information internally, and we're going to once again see the velocity of DNI changing.

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Toryn Ellis [00:21:35]:

So, for a lot of people, while DNI is huge, it's big, it's complicated. Yes, it's all of those things, but it's even easier or better when more of us are doing it versus few. And so what I try to do is go into an organization and get more people involved rather than just a few. The mistake that we've made is we think, well, if we just set up some ergs, that we got it. That's not the answer. There is no one answer. It's a multitude of different approaches, angles, processes, protocols. And that's the reason why you bring in people who know just how to move through that journey.

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Devyn Mikell [00:22:14]:

Right. I feel like it's like a common thread with any great consultant is throwing out the notion that there's a playbook that works just like one size fits all.

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Toryn Ellis [00:22:24]:

And, you know, and to that point around the playbook, what we attempt to do is to make it so that the organizational redesign that we suggest is complimentary. We don't really want the organizational redesign to be disruptive. I know that people want to disrupt systems. I get it. But what I'm suggesting through this is that, yes, it may be a little uncomfortable, but we're doing everything that we can to slide it in in a way where it becomes natural rhythm in the organization. You know, I tell people often, we can read some of these incredible business books, but, like, two months after you get done reading, do you recall what it is? I try to give people timeless guidance, direction, support, timeless. And it's in that natural rhythm of relationship building, team leading, modeling, inspiration, all of those things. And that's the reason why it works.

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Devyn Mikell [00:23:20]:

Gotcha. When you get in there with a client, a new client at a leadership level, have you faced, like, real opposition to what you're trying to do?

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Toryn Ellis [00:23:27]:

Yeah, absolutely. I can tell you about an organization. They knew that I was a good speaker. They also knew that I had a sales background, so they wanted me to come in and talk to their sales team. And so I said, cool. When is this going to happen? It's the national meeting, and I'm going to make this story really short. National meeting. All of the leaders going to be there.

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Toryn Ellis [00:23:46]:

So, Torren, we want you to come in and talk to the sales team. I said, cool. Well, what's going to happen on day number one? Well, on day number one, all of the leaders are getting together, and we're going to discuss whatever it is that we're discussing. I said, well, I want to talk to them. I said, I'm cool talking to the sales team on day number two, but if I'm going to be there, you're flying me down. You put me up in this high end luxury hotel. I want to talk to the leaders because this doesn't work. Even what I tell the sales team, it doesn't work without the proper support from leadership.

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Toryn Ellis [00:24:18]:

I'm not walking into a room and encouraging salespeople to go rogue. So you would want me to talk to the leadership so they have an idea of what that through line looks like. Oh, no, we're not going to let you talk to the leadership. They're not ready for that. I said, so why are they not ready for that? Bottom line is that organization, a year later, two years later, the way that they were celebrating representation in their organization, I'll give you an example. Was to bring cuban food to the employees in the Miami office, the employees in Chicago, Boston, Philly, DC, Miami, LA, a couple of other cities. But one of their ways of celebrating what they call their diverse sales team members in Miami was to bring cuban food. That's disgusting.

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Toryn Ellis [00:25:09]:

That's the least that you can do. But the resistance was torn. We're not letting you talk to leadership, and that's in the organization that I chose not to work with. I didn't talk to the sales team. I just backed out of the event, period. I said, you can find somebody else because my name is on it. And when I'm putting my name on something and suggesting that we're going to do this with the organization, I want to be able to look up and see people later on down the line, engage with people on LinkedIn. I don't want people to say, well, Torren just got a check.

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Toryn Ellis [00:25:41]:

He didn't do the things that he said he was going to do in that room. And I don't ever want my name to be tarnished in a way that says that I didn't do what I said that I would do, so I just didn't do it. And I've faced resistance from a number of organizations that don't want my report or won't allow my report to be moved to the executive team. I've been in situations where I've not been allowed to present findings to the board of directors. They wanted to just keep it internal. I've run through a number of different levels of resistance. I recently had a client where corporate communications would not budge on how they communicated externally. They had a sanitized way of really presenting the organization, and they didn't want to deviate from that.

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Toryn Ellis [00:26:29]:

They refused to deviate from that. I've been in engagements where they've said one thing, and when it's time for us to do something different, they've resisted doing it. And in the end, it's really their choice. But I try to avoid that as much as I possibly can.

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Devyn Mikell [00:26:45]:

Yeah, you said something interesting. I'm thinking about the celebration with the cuban food, and I feel like there's got to be a ton, tons of companies that make that mistake where it's, like almost insulting how. How it comes out. But I do feel like some companies are actually, or some people that are leading and doing these things are actually trying, but they get, like, attacked. I can sense that sometimes. Like, I think they meant well, made the wrong call. What are examples of good celebrations of diversity? Like, how do you do that? Well, like, how have you seen that come out? Well.

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Toryn Ellis [00:27:24]:

So before I respond to good examples, this will give me a chance to maybe think about a few of them. But the first thing that I think is important for people to know is that you will make mistakes in terms of doing DNI. And the reason you will make mistakes is because you live life through your own lens and purview. You live life according to your conditions and your circumstances. My life was different this morning, Devin, before we recorded here in Baltimore than yours was in Indiana. That's just by virtue of geography, dynamics, and a whole bunch of other factors. So given that, you will make mistakes in how you are approaching diversity and inclusion. So what I try to give people is a formula for doing this work, which is being empathetic, being intentional, having proximity, and being transparent.

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Toryn Ellis [00:28:19]:

And I feel like you will ebb and flow through empathy, intentionality, proximity, and transparency. You will ebb and flow through those four words. And sometimes you'll have to be a bit more empathetic in how you are curating your calendar. Other times, you'll have to be a bit more proximate. I don't really know what it's like to celebrate people from the disability community. So maybe I need to get close, have some conversations, talk to some people from the disability community. I'm struggling with this whole LGBTQ thing, so that transparency is out there. I'm sharing it with people in my circle.

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Toryn Ellis [00:28:54]:

I'm sharing it with people, maybe from the community. So, yes, I'm struggling with it, but I want to celebrate it, so I don't want to do it the wrong way, how do I do that? Ebbing and flowing through empathy, intentionality, proximity, and transparency. And as long as you are subscribing to those four words and you are moving according to situational awareness, you need to recognize when I need to be empathetic. I need to recognize when I should be far more intentional, far more dogmatic about what it is that I'm doing. I am not going to have a conversation in 2025 about women's payday. I'm not going to have that conversation ever again. So I got to be really, really intentional in my organization. What do we need to do to make sure that in March of next year, we're not celebrating that for white women, that in August of next year, we're not celebrating that for black women, that in September of 2025, we're not celebrating that for black women or if we are celebrating it, we're celebrating it because we've reached parity.

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Toryn Ellis [00:29:59]:

That's the way that we want to celebrate. So what I will say to you, rather than pointing out good ways of curating celebrations, be more honest in how you are ebbing and flowing through empathy, intentionality, proximity, and transparency. Because there, in those four, you have the humanity that I am looking for. You have the humanity that your teammates are looking for. You have the formula for keeping people more engaged, more productive, and staying with your organization longer. And in the end, Devyn, that's exactly what diversity and inclusion should be measured by. Nothing else. It should be measured by, are my people engaged? Are they producing and are they staying with my organization? Because if they're engaged and they're producing, then why wouldn't I want them to stay? Why wouldn't I want them to be promoted up into the organization? I think we get it wrong when we start to measure.

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Toryn Ellis [00:30:55]:

Are we putting enough black individuals in certain seats, or are we putting enough older individuals in certain roles? Are we recruiting enough from the muslim community or the protestant community? What are we doing? Yes, those things matter. But in the end, all of that filters through engagement, production, and retention. There are not a lot of consultants that approach the work of DNI the way that I do. I am not saying that I am the best, but I approach DNI as a practitioner because I'm a business person. I'm a business person. So I'm not an individual who is begrudging capitalism. I'm not an individual who feels like businesses should not make money in return. Shareholder value.

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Toryn Ellis [00:31:44]:

I am a business person. I just care about humanity. I care about how we treat people. And I believe, like B Corps do. I believe that we can have the best of all of those worlds. That's the way that I approach consulting. And so for me, that's the way that I'm always operating. Engagement, production, retention.

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Devyn Mikell [00:32:05]:

And you have something that, like, you have a business outcome to present.

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Toryn Ellis [00:32:09]:

Absolutely.

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Devyn Mikell [00:32:10]:

I think that's what people struggle with DNI. They're like, I don't know how to measure or why it matters. And when you say, like, people stay, they're productive, and the growth in the company, like, that matters.

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Toryn Ellis [00:32:22]:

It matters. It absolutely matters. And again, that goes back to an earlier comment. It doesn't matter to me what book you read. What I'm saying to people is your approach to DNI. Your approach does not have to be earth shattering. It can be timeless, complementary reorganizational design.

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Devyn Mikell [00:32:43]:

I think everyone makes it too big. It becomes too big. Then it becomes impossible. Then you don't do it at all. And I feel like that's they're going to get something from that for sure. All right, I'm a transitionist because we could go. But the hot tea segment I've told you about five questions. Fast hitting.

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Devyn Mikell [00:33:02]:

I'm going to read them faster. I try to. And your goal is to hit them with quick hit answers?

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Toryn Ellis [00:33:07]:

Look, I like being in the lions den. Give them to me.

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Devyn Mikell [00:33:10]:

All right, sounds good. All right. One person that has changed your life in talent acquisition.

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Toryn Ellis [00:33:15]:

One person changed my life. Glenn Cathy.

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Devyn Mikell [00:33:18]:

Why is that?

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Toryn Ellis [00:33:19]:

He wrote a really, really big piece years ago around being an introvert, and I appreciated his piece. I didn't necessarily agree with him. He felt like introversion should be categorized as a disability. But even though I didn't agree that it was a disability, I absolutely agreed with his position, how he framed it. Have always loved that about him and continued to love that about him. And to tag onto that, I read a book by Susan Cain titled Quiet. It's an incredible book that talks about, highlights introversion. He's the person who changed my life or made an impact on me in Ta.

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Toryn Ellis [00:34:01]:

Awesome.

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Devyn Mikell [00:34:02]:

Most challenging role you've had to recruit for ever.

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Toryn Ellis [00:34:06]:

I don't have one.

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Devyn Mikell [00:34:07]:

It's all easy.

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Toryn Ellis [00:34:08]:

Yeah, I just don't have one because it wasn't so much so a role. I mean, you know, every role has some degree of challenge. There are roles that are easy that you don't close. There are roles that are hard that you don't close. I haven't had one that's a challenge. But I can tell you about my most challenging recruiting endeavor, where I took a job with a competitor because I had promised the other organization. I said, I can get you their number one representative out of every city. And the client was like, how can you do that? I'm one of the best recruiters on the planet.

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Toryn Ellis [00:34:43]:

They had no idea what my strategy was. So my strategy, Devin, was I did my resume. I got hired at the competitive company. I went to training, literally in Dallas for a week. Went to training, came back, went to work every single day for four months. And every day after work, I would look at the sales system and the database to see who the top reps were all across the country. They probably made 200 placements from me. I made close to a million dollars just off of that deal right there.

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Devyn Mikell [00:35:17]:

That is a play.

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Toryn Ellis [00:35:18]:

I'm cold, son. I'm cold. I'm cold. You know, while some people are working and building boolean streams, I can do that. But when I say that, you know, I understand how to get busy as a recruiter. I've done some things, you know, all of which are legal to get busy as a recruiter. So I was an employee, but I was rocking, just ripping them. I mean, ripping them out.

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Devyn Mikell [00:35:42]:

That's wild. All right. Where do you go to stay updated on the latest trends and changes in the ta landscape?

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Toryn Ellis [00:35:48]:

Twitter. That's the first I go to x, you know, because I like to see what people like Joel Lagie are writing, what people like Pete Ratlaw for doing, Steve Levy are doing, Amy Beth Quinn is doing. I like to listen to bullying and bruise podcasts. They have some incredible, incredible folks on, talking about some of the latest things that they do. So I like to just be in the moment seeing some of the real time sharings of information. That's where I go.

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Devyn Mikell [00:36:18]:

What's your go to interview question? If you could only pick one greatest.

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Toryn Ellis [00:36:21]:

Misconception that people have about you.

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Devyn Mikell [00:36:25]:

And then lastly, I'm shifting this one to you, to your world. What's a common DNI activity that needs to die?

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Toryn Ellis [00:36:32]:

Oh, unconscious bias training all day long. And here's what's really beautiful. A couple of years ago, Doctor Heather Myers from paradox, she and I used to do this pro con conversation around unconscious bias. And so she would take the pro side, I would take the antagonist side, and we would debate, and we did this publicly, like on four or five different occasions. Like literally, she's taking the positive, I'm taking the negative. But in the end, we understood why unconscious bias training was there. What was valuable was that people needed to understand one. People use it as a crutch.

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Toryn Ellis [00:37:13]:

They use it to support their complacency. That argument around meritocracy, they see it as doing enough, and it's really not enough. And in many ways it's a hindrance. So I just think that unconscious bias training there is something we can take out. If you're going to do it in a beautiful way, then leave it in.

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Devyn Mikell [00:37:32]:

Love it. You survived the hot seat, laid down some good tracks. I appreciate it, and obviously I appreciate you.

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Toryn Ellis [00:37:39]:

I know one of the tracks went a little bit longer. It was. But, you know, I mean, I did it, you know, every once in a while, you know, you got a three minute joint, you got a four minute and 26 2nd joint. And so we had to do a little bit.

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Devyn Mikell [00:37:50]:

Yeah. Well, Torin, this has been really good. Like I said before, there's people that don't know you, very few, but the audience is going to want to keep up with you. What are some things I know you are all over the place, so tell people how to keep up with you digitally and then maybe share where you're going to be at over the next few months as well.

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Toryn Ellis [00:38:10]:

I won't share a schedule because it frequently changes. We're doing some major events. I've done most of the HR tech type events or HR related events, so it just really depends. But where you can find me is at Toren Ellis, across all of social media at Torren Ellis and on the web, torrenelis.com. like Deon Sanders says, I ain't hard to find.

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Devyn Mikell [00:38:36]:

Perfect. Everyone. Make sure you go like follow, subscribe to anything he's got because it's good. And if you like this episode as well, make sure to like follow, subscribe to higher quality as well. And we're going to keep putting out great tracks just like this. So till the next time in turn, hopefully see you soon.

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Toryn Ellis [00:38:53]:

You got it. Thanks, man.